Triple A

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Posts by Triple A

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  45

  Cross or torture stake.....

  by snakeizz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this has always puzzled me.....can anyone shed some light as to what it really was?

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  Triple A

  Welcome ZealofJehu,

  Hope you enjoy posting on JWD.

  I think you are right as to one of the reasons the WTS uses the stake. It is like their flag pole to rally around.

  Triple A
• 
  45

  Cross or torture stake.....

  by snakeizz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this has always puzzled me.....can anyone shed some light as to what it really was?

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  Triple A

  IMO the discussion of Cross or Stake is exactly what Rutherford and those that followed wanted. The debate pulls us away from what really took place on the tree (is that politically correct or what). Jesus died as a substitute for you and me. He was resurrected so that we could share in ever lasting life. That is what is truely important.

  But I must admit, that I love the theological debate. It does stimulate ones thinking.
• 
  45

  Cross or torture stake.....

  by snakeizz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this has always puzzled me.....can anyone shed some light as to what it really was?

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  Triple A

  Why couldn't God tell Moses to make an Asherah pole?

  God can do anything that He wants to. But in Numbers Moses was doing what God told him to do and there was no reference to worship and/or the Asherah Pole. 2 Kings 18 deals with corrupted worship and how the people, not Moses, put the snake on the Asherah Pole.

  The Life Application Bible that I use says this about 2 Kings 18:4. The bronze snake had been made to cure the Israelites of the bit of venoumous snakes (Numbers 21:4-9). It demonstrated God's presence and power and reminded the people of his mercy and forgiveness. But it had become an object of worship instead of a reminder of whom to worship, so Hezekiah was forced to destroy it. We must be careful that aids to our worship don't become objects of worship themselves. Most objects are not made to be idols - they become idols by the way people use them.

  Although 2 Kings discribes what happened in the Isrealites worship it does not relate to what John was talking about in John 3:14-16. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. [ e ]
  16 ?For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [ f ] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.The connection with 2 Kings 18 is not a valid relationship.

  The reference in John is belief and the reference in Numbers is belief. The reference in 2 Kings is corrupted worship. 2 Kings is not related to the context of John 3. To tie 2 Kings to what John was talking about is not a correct textual relationship.
• 
  45

  Cross or torture stake.....

  by snakeizz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this has always puzzled me.....can anyone shed some light as to what it really was?

  1. 
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  Triple A

  Leolaia,

  Are you saying that God directed Moses to put the snake on the Asherah Pole in Numbers.

  I agree that 2 Kings 18:4 says the Asherah Pole. What I disagree with is that you say Moses put it there and at God's direction. The text here is talking about those that have corrupted worship, which would mean that they corrupted what Moses had done.

  The Septuagint published by Hendrickson Publishers, the pole is translated signal-staff in Numbers 21:8-9. I do not claim to be a Greek or Hebrew Scholar.

  Triple A
• 
  45

  Cross or torture stake.....

  by snakeizz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this has always puzzled me.....can anyone shed some light as to what it really was?

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  Triple A

  Moses was told to put a snake on a pole, note that Asherah is not used here: Numbers 21:8-9 8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived. (NIV).

  2 Kings 18:4 does say that Moses put it on the Asherah Pole. The context here is the distruction of the corruption that the Isrealites had allow to enter there worship: 2 Kings 18:1-4 1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother's name was Abijah [a] daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD , just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called [b] Nehushtan. [c] )

  1. 2 Kings 18:4 Or He called it
  2. 2 Kings 18:4 Nehushtan sounds like the Hebrew for bronze and snake and unclean thing.

  So I can not agree that John pointed to the Asherah Pole as prophecy of Jesus' death. A pole yes, the Asherah Pole no.
• 
  45

  Cross or torture stake.....

  by snakeizz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this has always puzzled me.....can anyone shed some light as to what it really was?

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  Triple A

  IMO It does not matter if Christ died on a stake or a cross. What matters is that he died for our sins and was resurrected so that we ALL can have ever lasting life.
• 
  45

  Cross or torture stake.....

  by snakeizz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this has always puzzled me.....can anyone shed some light as to what it really was?

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  Triple A

  One good reason that the WT demonized the cross was/is the fact that it was a pagan symbol LONG before it was theirs. Just like pretty much everything else. You can find crosses from many many cultures in Old Testament times, and it can be found even in pre-Biblical cultures. I'm sure the Romans weren't using that formation as a means of execution out of any respect for religious symbology, but out of expediency or efficiency in putting these people to death in this very public humiliating way.

  The Bible sayes to tear down the "Asherah Pole" mentioned 14 times. Making the pole or stake which the Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 page 1116 says, "In classical Greek the word (stau ros') rendered "torture stake" in the New World Translation primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used it to designate a stake with a crossbeam." So with your logic than the stake is equally a pagan symbol and should not be used either.

  1. Deuteronomy 16:21
     [ Worshiping Other Gods ] Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole [ Or Do not plant any tree dedicated to Asherah ] beside the altar you build to the LORD your God,
     Deuteronomy 16:20-22 (in Context) Deuteronomy 16 (Whole Chapter)
  2. Judges 6:25
     That same night the LORD said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old. [ Or Take a full-grown, mature bull from your father's herd ] Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole [ That is, a symbol of the goddess Asherah; here and elsewhere in Judges ] beside it.
     Judges 6:24-26 (in Context) Judges 6 (Whole Chapter)
  3. Judges 6:26
     Then build a proper kind of [ Or build with layers of stone an ] altar to the LORD your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second [ Or full-grown ; also in verse 28 ] bull as a burnt offering."
     Judges 6:25-27 (in Context) Judges 6 (Whole Chapter)
  4. Judges 6:28
     In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!
     Judges 6:27-29 (in Context) Judges 6 (Whole Chapter)
  5. Judges 6:30
     The men of the town demanded of Joash, "Bring out your son. He must die, because he has broken down Baal's altar and cut down the Asherah pole beside it."
     Judges 6:29-31 (in Context) Judges 6 (Whole Chapter)
  6. 1 Kings 15:13
     He even deposed his grandmother Maacah from her position as queen mother, because she had made a repulsive Asherah pole. Asa cut the pole down and burned it in the Kidron Valley.
     1 Kings 15:12-14 (in Context) 1 Kings 15 (Whole Chapter)
  7. 1 Kings 16:33
     Ahab also made an Asherah pole and did more to provoke the LORD , the God of Israel, to anger than did all the kings of Israel before him.
     1 Kings 16:32-34 (in Context) 1 Kings 16 (Whole Chapter)
  8. 2 Kings 13:6
     But they did not turn away from the sins of the house of Jeroboam, which he had caused Israel to commit; they continued in them. Also, the Asherah pole [ That is, a symbol of the goddess Asherah; here and elsewhere in 2 Kings ] remained standing in Samaria.
     2 Kings 13:5-7 (in Context) 2 Kings 13 (Whole Chapter)
  9. 2 Kings 17:16
     They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal.
     2 Kings 17:15-17 (in Context) 2 Kings 17 (Whole Chapter)
  10. 2 Kings 21:3
      He rebuilt the high places his father Hezekiah had destroyed; he also erected altars to Baal and made an Asherah pole, as Ahab king of Israel had done. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them.
      2 Kings 21:2-4 (in Context) 2 Kings 21 (Whole Chapter)
  11. 2 Kings 21:7
      He took the carved Asherah pole he had made and put it in the temple, of which the LORD had said to David and to his son Solomon, "In this temple and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, I will put my Name forever.
      2 Kings 21:6-8 (in Context) 2 Kings 21 (Whole Chapter)
  12. 2 Kings 23:6
      He took the Asherah pole from the temple of the LORD to the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem and burned it there. He ground it to powder and scattered the dust over the graves of the common people.
      2 Kings 23:5-7 (in Context) 2 Kings 23 (Whole Chapter)
  13. 2 Kings 23:15
      Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin-even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also.
      2 Kings 23:14-16 (in Context) 2 Kings 23 (Whole Chapter)
  14. 2 Chronicles 15:16
      King Asa also deposed his grandmother Maacah from her position as queen mother, because she had made a repulsive Asherah pole. Asa cut the pole down, broke it up and burned it in the Kidron Valley.
      2 Chronicles 15:15-17 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 15 (Whole Chapter)

  These were taken from the NIV and the links will take you to the verses on Biblegateway.com.

  If the stake is so correct and the cross is so wrong, why does the WTS have to misinterpet those that say that Jesus died on a cross? Why can they not find enough support for the stake and just present that information?

  Also when Jesus selected the WTS as the only true relegion, they taught that Jesus was crucified on a cross and Rutherford had the following to say in The Harp of God:

  "And Pilate, more righteous than the clerics, posted over his cross the sign: 'Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.'" (page 136)

  "When Jesus died upon the cross of

  "The ransom price was provided at the cross. The cross of Christ is the great pivotal truth of the divine arrangement, from which radiates the hopes of men." (page 142)

  "In the cross of Christ I glory,
  Tow'ring o'er the wrecks of time;
  All the light of sacred story
  Gathers round its head sublime." (poem quoted on page 143)
• 
  15

  how long to baptism?

  by lost truth? in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have recently started a bible study, and think that i may like to be baptised.. i was wondering how long does someone have to study before they are baptised?.

  also, i was wondering how many hours do people spend on their mission (door to door).

  i would be thankful for any help, as i am just like many, searching for awnsers.

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  Triple A

  Lost Truth,

  What is going on with you. Are you researching like the Bereans or just listing to the GB message?

  Triple A
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  14

  How's this for an effective anti-Watchtower media campaign?

  by nicolaou in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  bear with me, you'll soon see where this is going......... i was listening to radio 5 live (uk) this morning.

  a chap was being interviewed about a campaign he has started in brighton to save his local football club and its ground - full story here.

  what he and his friends have done is release a record!

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  Triple A

  Perhaps Prince will see the true light, get out of the WTS, and do it himself.
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  68

  ~Show us your PC wallpaper~

  by FlyingHighNow in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  here's mine: (it's set on a red background).

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  Triple A

  This was a cloud that was over Viejas Mountain at dusk.